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Thursday, July 26, 2018

How can Dogma change?

I've ignore this for years, but its come up in an interesting email discussion with a Catholic friend of mine and we would like some answers. 

Can anyone help us out here? 

"No salvation outside the Catholic Church"  
“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”  -Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441 AD) 

“The universal Church of the faithful is one outside of which none is saved.” -Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, Fourth Lateran Council (1215 AD) 


"Yes! There is salvation outside the Church!" 
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964   
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth. 
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention."

Did Vatican II change Dogma to say non-Catholics are saved by other faiths? Like the example of the Muslims mentioned? 

What happened? The Catechism (below) seems clear that belief in Christ is necessary for salvation- but what sort of belief? The Muslims believe Jesus was just a good prophet? Is that enough for salvation now? 

Is it the "We have the 'hope' all people will be saved" that Bishop Barron is always talking about? 

Is it merely the ignorant who never knew about Jesus, but had they known they would have believed? 

Or... has the Church completely changed centuries of Catholic Dogma? 


In Christ, 

Julie @ Connecticut Catholic Corner 


161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"]

 Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2, SubSection 1  

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." 55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.



  1. Julie, you just opened up a can of worms.

    Be prepared for the "evolution of dogma" and "deepening of the truth" nonsense answers you may get.

    Neither one honestly answers the obvious and blatant contradiction of former and present Church teaching.


  2. Thank you Mary.

    My Catholic friend and I "opened the can of worms" in email, so I am very curious what my reader have to say about this- if anything at all.

    God bless.


  3. On my blog I have written a lot on how you can interpret Vatican Council II and other magisterial documents with a false premise or without it, with what I call Cushingism( false premise) or with Feeneyism.
    With Feeneyism Vatican Council II supports the traditional strict interpretation of the dogma EENS.With Cushingism as an interpretative tool, there is a rupture. You have used Cushingism.
    Most Catholics do the same. It is approved by the Left.
    A priest who interprets Vatican Council II in Rome with Feeneyism could be suspended or lose his incardination.
    -Lionel Andrades

  4. July 28, 2018
    Dogmas do not change : Vatican Council II is in harmony with the strict interpretation of EENS. There is no past and new ecclesiology for me.

  5. JULY 28, 2018
    When Vatican Council II is not a rupture with Tradition( EENS, Syllabus of Errors etc) it is an issue for Cardinal Avez and Archbishop Carbello and not the Franciscans of the Immaculate or the Society of St. Pius X(SSPX)

  6. JULY 28, 2018
    A simple observation needs to be made by the Franciscans of the Immaculate and the SSPX : and there will be a breakthrough

  7. So Vatican Council II did not change the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, would you agree?
    Dogmas do not change.
    The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus has changed for Pope Benedict. He said in March 2016 that EENS was no more today like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.He said Vatican Council II was a development.Of course like Julie he was interpreting Lumen Gentium with Cushingism.

    In the same way Cardinal Luiz Ladaria s.j at the Placuit Deo Press Conference (March 1,2018) in answer to a question said that the Catholic Church no more holds that it has the superiority in salvation or that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. He cited Lumen Gentium 8 ( subsistit it) as an exception.His exact words can be seen on a video on Youtube.
    In other words he allegedly knew of a non Catholic, he was inferring, who was saved outside the Church where it was known that the true, Church of Christ subsists.(LG 8)
    This is irrational. How can this be known?
    So it is important to interpret Vatican Council II with Feeneyism and then the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus does not change.
    -Lionel Andrades


  8. Julie,
    Here is your EWTN interpreting EENS, Vatican Councl II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church etc with irrational Cushingism.

    JULY 29, 2018
    EWTN interprets Outside The Church There Is No Salvation with an objective error

  9. JULY 31, 2018
    Feast of St.Ignatius of Loyola today


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Thank you and God bless...

Julie @ Connecticut Catholic Corner

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