Catholic Priest tells Atheist the Bible is full of fiction

By Connecticut Catholic Corner

An atheist attempts to prove to a Catholic priest that 1) the Bible is wrong and 2) God doesn't exist.

The Catholic priest tells the atheist 1) the "Bible is full of fiction" 2) God did not create the world in a week and 3) "you're not supposed to take the Bible literally".

The impression I got (could be wrong) is that this priest thinks the entire Old Testament is pure fiction, with made up stories to be used to prove Jesus is the Christ in the New Testament. (Not sure how anyone can or would want to use fiction to prove a Truth, but this priest seems to think he's making his case that way.)

I was very disappointed with the priest denying what God commanded the Jews under the Old Covenant to do (stoning, death penalty etc.).  The priest does this a lot when the atheist mentions the Leviticus Laws.  Just own up to it Father!  It's in the Bible, God commanded it under the Old Covenant. Period!  The priest insists over and over again that it is the "culture" that determined things like stoning- he completely ignores and rejects the fact that God DID command people to be stoned if they were found guilty of certain sins.  Its in the Bible NOT because of "culture" but because it's God's Word.

I do give kudos to the priest for TRYING to educate the atheist on 'free will' but sadly, the atheist still doesn't understand it.  Of course he's not alone, even the Christian Calvinists don't understand "free will".

What do you think of the discussion?

I wish the discussion had continued...perhaps the atheist will meet with the priest again and record that meeting as well.  Since the atheist has such a problem with the Old Testament, I would suggest he also try speaking with a Rabbi about those Leviticus Laws.


In Christ,


Julie @ Connecticut Catholic Corner


Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGybXa_dE8

Talking to an Atheist

The following discussion began in the comments section of my post "MSNBC's 'United in Godlessness' Up w/Chris Hayes Show" from last Monday. If you are just joining this discussion, I suggest reading the origins first. Below is the last comment I recieved from Brian, a self professed Atheist and ex-Catholic. My comments are in BLUE.
Brian: Now we have a conversation going :-)

*Me: Yes we do!! And for that reason, I am giving our discussion its own article place on my blog. I understand that all your comments are coming from an Atheistic view point and you need to understand that all my responses will come from a Catholic Christian point of view. I understand that you often will not agree with me and you need to have the same understanding of me. If we can both do that, we can continue to have a civil and hopefully enlightening discussion. I have BOLDED some of Brian's text that I am specifically responding to.
To that end, I am going to respond to your comments from the original blog post: http://connecticutcatholiccorner.blogspot.com/2012/03/msnbcs-united-in-godlessness-up-wchris.html

Brian: Christians(in general) come from a standpoint that we are born wretched evil sinners and that only through the grace of god and the murder of Jesus are we given the hope to be made whole. I was Catholic and this is how I was taught. It is a fundamental reason that I left the Church and later dropping the belief in a deity has a lot to do with this line of thinking.
As for you last statement, rather question; "What have you got to lose?" I would think that you can do better than to throw out Pascal's Wager. The problem here is that it supposes that there is only the Christian deity and leaves out all other deities ever conceived of. Mathematically speaking, the probability that the Christian god is actually the correct god, let alone that your version of that god is the exact correct one is very slim. What if we both are wrong? Osiris is much worse on non-believers than the Christian god is. In this case I revert back to my favorite statement by Aurelius.
I believed for most of my life. I left for moral reasons. I found that I couldn't be both moral and a good Christian at the same time. The two do not mix."

*Me: I can’t speak for all Christians, but I was under the impression that “we are born evil wretched sinners” was more of a Protestant theology. The Catholic Church teaches that we all have Original Sin that we need to be baptized for, but I don’t know of any Catholic teaching that claims we are “evil”. Could you point me to where that was taught to you? And as to your comment about “the murder of Jesus”…Jesus was not murdered, He became God Incarnate to willingly give up His life for love of mankind. He was not murdered, he was a willing sacrifice (John 10:18). And to your last comment about moral teaching not “mixing” with Christianity, how so? What moral teaching do you find don’t mix with Christianity?

Brian: BTW, as a real Atheist I hold no belief in any deity simply for lack of evidence. That is not to say that I do not rule out the possibility of one actually existing.
I do have to point out the your statement, "and have no idea to whom you give your gratitude to." is flawed from an Atheist standpoint. Why must there be a who to qualify the gratitude?
I don't think that we are that different. In fact, I don't think that 99.9% of humanity is that different, no matter their faith or lack of faith. It is exactly that similarity, in spite of respective beliefs, that lends great credence to my lack of faith. And when I say lack of faith, understand that I do have faith in a great many things. Based on historical evidence, I have faith that the son will rise. Based on my children's actions, I have faith in their professed love for me. It is by that standard that I hold no belief in a god.

*Me: Oh I agree that “Based on historical evidence, [in my case the Bible & the Church] I have faith that the son [Son] will rise again”- I know that isn’t how you were intending to make your point, but I just can’t pass stuff like that up! *grin* I don’t understand your view that people being alike leads to your not having faith in God. To me, that is the reason I believe we ALL come from God.

Brian: I asked god once, many times, for grace, for salvation, for anything. There never was an answer. I would say that even if you do believe, spend a year as a professed Atheist. Heck, spend six months as one. I think it would open your eyes.

*Me: Here is where we part ways Brian because I simply on all counts disagree with you here. As an ex-Catholic you had grace abundantly (that is not to say grace isn’t given to non-Catholic Christians). There is grace given every time you went to mass…every time you went to Confession and most especially every time you had the Eucharist. You may not FEEL it with the warm-fuzzies, but it’s there none the less. And salvation is a process we go through from the moment of our baptism to the moment of our death. I know some protestant groups will disagree- they subscribe to the “once saved always saved” theology which I rejected years ago after a good study on John 15 (the Vine & the Branches). But in the bible, Jesus says we must pick up our crosses (Mark 8:34) and follow Him to the end. Some do, others fall away along their life’s journey. God never promised life would be easy or without suffering, what He did promise was that those who endured to the end would be rewarded with Salvation and eternity in Heaven. That’s His promise to us.

And as for your suggestion that I "try to be an Atheist", I couldn't even if I wanted to because my faith is as real to me as my arms and legs. I could no more cut them off myself than I could cut off my faith from God. That is not to say our faith isn't tested, our life is one long test on assorted fronts. As I've already mentioned, Jesus didn't tell us to "pick up our crosses" if He meant us all to live on Easy Street our whole lives. Our crosses are our struggles and sufferings that we endure here on earth. The reward comes at the end, with blessings and graces poured out along our way IF we do as He asked "follow" Him WHILE we carry those burdens. Life is a struggle and a gift at the same time with the sweetest most wonderful reward to be had at the end of our lives. Jesus carried his cross and we must carry ours. He had help along the way, and we have help along the way too.

My prayer for you Brian, is that one day you will see that and know how very, very much God loves you and does exist. He's got blessings and graces and a final reward waiting for you too, if you'd just pick up your cross (perhaps your cross is that of Saint Thomas-'doubt'. He doubted yet he endured to the end to become a Saint) and follow him, enduring lifes struggles along the way. I am praying for you Brian.

O God, the everlasting Creator of all things, remember that the souls of unbelievers were made by Thee and formed in Thine own image and likeness. Remember that Jesus, Thy Son, endured a most bitter death for their salvation. Permit not, I beseech Thee, O Lord, that Thy Son should be any longer despised by unbelievers, but do Thou graciously accept the prayers of holy men and of the Church, the Spouse of Thy most holy Son, and be mindful of Thy mercy. Forget their idolatry and unbelief, and grant that they too may some day know Him whom Thou hast sent, even the Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Salvation, our Life and Resurrection, by whom we have been saved and delivered, to whom be glory for endless ages. Amen.

MSNBC's "United in Godlessness" Up w/Chris Hayes show

Catholic Catechism #2124 The name "atheism" covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history." 59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man's hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."

I don’t often sit home on Sunday mornings watching Sunday news programs on television- most of it is just rehashing news from the previous week which was depressing enough the first time I heard it. But this Sunday morning, my family and I were attending the 10:30 am mass so I had time to kill and happened upon a title that caught my eye. The show was MSNBC’s “Up with Chris Hayes” and the Sunday feature show was entitled “United in Godlessness” – a show about Atheism in America, in politics, in science, in social society and even in church.

The guests were all atheists including the show’s host Chris Hayes (an exCatholic), Susan Jacoby (author), Jamila Bey (Washington Post blogger), Jamie Kilstein (comedian), Richard Dawkins (author), Steven Pinker (scientist), Robert Wright (author) and Nondenominational Christian church Pastor Mike Aus who “came out” Sunday morning on national television as an atheist leading a Christian nondenominational church. [I’d be interested in hearing how his congregation took this ‘coming out’ news.]

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My initial response to hearing what these people were saying was to be offended by them, most especially the mockery of belief in the Eucharist being the actual Body of Christ and the Cup being the Blood. So as I start this, I am going with my initial reactions… being offended and my knee jerk reaction (yelling at the TV and calling them ‘hypocrites’ and ‘liars’.) Yet after the show, all I really felt was extreme pity for them. And I am not saying that to be condescending, I truly feel pity for any human being that has no belief in anything other than themselves and/or their science. The hopelessness of being an atheist (in my opinion) is incredibly sad. But back to my initial rant… (for now).

Richard Dawkins…, I am used to hearing his tirades on Christians, so I wasn’t surprised by what he was saying, but rather the laughter, giggling and entertainment the other guests found in Dawkins remarks calling Christian beliefs “ridiculous beliefs” and referring to Christians as “nutcases”. Apparently I was giving them more credit for having a respectful discussion on belief vs. no belief than they deserved. I won’t make that mistake twice.

Then Richard Dawkins made one comment that actually got me thinking. He was talking about religious people in politics and the discussion was about giving your vote to a “nutcase” that believes in Christ’s Second Coming or in the Eucharist. He stated that he thinks people of faith in politics should be put to the test- force them to defend their beliefs publicly. He wants politicians to answer for their faith before people vote them into any political office. He was presumably referring to Rick Santorum or perhaps Newt Gingrich when he hypothetically gave an example saying: “Do you truly believe the wafer turns into the Body of Christ?” –his idea of putting a politician in a place of defending the belief they claim to hold. I wonder if Mr. Dawkins would like progressive (a word they all oozed with love over) liberal Nancy Pelosi to answer that same question? Or perhaps President Obama? How would he answer Dawkins’ question about his personal faith and beliefs? Do "progressive" atheists refer to Nancy Pelosi or President Obama as "nutcases" or is that just reserved for nonliberals? Dawkins then went on to attack the Mormon faith without naming Romney as the politician whose faith he was taking pot shots at.

Susan Jacoby showed herself to be a snobbish hypocrite, in my honest opinion. She clearly stated at the start of the show that her atheism is “central” to whom she is and stated that it “shapes her views” in other areas of her life. She then went on (along with the others) to attack Christians for allowing their faith to “shape their views” and for Christianity being “central” to a Christian. I call that hypocrisy. She further offended me by saying (in so many words) that believers of religious beliefs were uneducated and that because of this “lack of education” 80% of conservatives were part of the “religious right” having little education passed the 8th grade. Personally, I found nothing of worth in anything Susan Jacoby had to contribute to the show so I won’t waste anymore time on her here.
Comedian Jamie Kilstein, a proud atheist, had the biggest ego of the bunch. He was on Jacoby’s bandwagon about how smart atheists/progressives were and how dimwitted people of faith are. Besides declaring “the religious right has over stepped it’s bounds” (what bounds and where/when did said over stepping happen, he never said) he went on to say...

“If you’re having a conversation with a religious person, I would start with something like gay rights or something like women’s rights that they could maybe relate to as opposed to saying ‘Everything you’ve been taught as a child is incorrect because I think you’re dumb’.”

Really Jamie? That’s how you approach people of faith? And liberals dare to call Christians “narrow minded” and “intolerant”!

A whopper of a lie came from Jamila Bey a blogger for the Washington Post when she declared that if she were pregnant and the pregnancy was going to kill her that a Catholic hospital would say “fine, let me [Jamila] die” because (according to Jamila) the Catholic Church has legislated that all Catholic hospitals let pregnant women die rather than providing life saving care. The fact is the Catholic Church forbids DIRECT abortion, not indirect abortion to save a life. That is to say, an abortion for the sole purpose of not having a baby is a sin- its murder. The Church does NOT forbid INDIRECT abortion to save a mother’s life.

Directive #47: "Operations, treatments and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child."
Source: http://usccb.org/about/doctrine/ethical-and-religious-directives/

After listening to these atheists and watching Pastor Mike Aus “come out” on television as an atheist leading a Christian nondenominational church a profound sadness hit me. These people were missing so much and they didn’t even know it. Some of them weren’t just missing out; they had rejected what they once had. What a horrid blasphemy to reject God! They were so wrapped up in college degrees, science and their own superior attitudes that they could not see that it was them lacking, not religious people. They are void of faith.

What a terrible thing to have no faith. Believers have a duty to share what they know with unbelievers and to pray for them. We must pray and ask God to have mercy on unbelievers, to gift them with the grace they need to have faith. What a terrible thing for believers not to share their faith with unbelievers! Souls are precious to God, every single one of them. A Christian’s soul is no more important than an Atheist's soul. A lost soul is a horrible crime…made worse if there was something a believer could do and he/she failed to act. If believers don’t share their knowledge and faith with unbelievers are we not guilty of concealing the Truth and keeping them from the joys and fulfillment we’ve found in God? We do not need to beat people over the heads with our bibles, we need to be willing to share our faith when we can and when we can’t, we must pray for unbelievers. Pray that they will have the grace needed for faith to grow.

Catholic Catechism #2125 “Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”

Prior to this show, I honestly hadn’t put much thought into Atheism. It was just there…a silent, sad state of being. After listening to this show my eyes have been opened to just how hopeless these people are. I was horrified to imagine an atheist at the moment of their death coming face to face with the Truth of God’s existence and the horror they must feel in that instant of knowing they were wrong in their willful rejection of God.

I truly don’t want a single human being to die an Atheist, to that end, I will pray more than ever for the conversion of souls. What a joy it would be, to witness unbelievers becoming believers!