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Monday, August 29, 2016

Tridentine Mass vs Novus Ordo

This makes me angry and incredibly sad...


...I feel ripped off by the Church. We had such beauty, reverence, holiness of worship in the Tridentine Mass.  We were fed the fullness of all Christ had given us in the Mass.

Now we are fed the crumbs from the floor. 


We are starving, some of us so spiritually anorexic we are dying from it- walking into Hell and still the Church turns a blind eye to our hunger. 


God have mercy on us! 


In Christ, 

Julie @ Connecticut Catholic Corner 




14 comments:

Catechist Kev said...

Dear Julie,

You, in the few words written in this small post, have expressed exactly what I have felt for the past five years or so now.

Sometimes I wish... oh how I wish, I would have never discovered the great sites of Adoremus, Fr. Z., and many others - that promote sacredness in the worship of Almighty God.

[sigh]

Yet, in the long run, I am glad that I did. At least I can pray for a return to some of the wonderful things that were thrown out (you know, going to the store house and bringing out "treasure what is new and *what is old*"? [Mt. 13:52]).

Because, after all, our Blessed Lord was heard for His reverence! (Heb. 5:7)

Let us pray for each other, Julie.

God love you,
Catechist Kev

thetimman said...

Julie,

Pretty much exactly the feeling I had when I first decided to turn to the traditional Mass, thus changing my life for the better forever.

I wrote about it here:http://stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/2013/07/how-john-paul-ii-led-me-to-traditional_18.html

Stephen Lowe said...

When due to circumstances, I have to go 'local', I am mildly trepidatious upon arrival but definitively despondent upon departure. My eyes have seen more skin than they should have and my ears has heard more joviality than at a comedy show.....I try my best to avoid those occasions.

Restore-DC-Catholicism said...

What that is isn't "crumbs from the floor" but rat poison.

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Those of you who condemn the "Novus Ordo" Mass, aka Oridnary Form, seem to forget that Jesus Christ is as present at this form of the Mass as He is at the EF. All of the Angels and saints are at the OF.. The Blessed Mother is present. Transubstantian takes place at the OF just as it does at the EF.

I use to look down my nose at the OF just as many of you do. I use to go almost exclusively to the EF. But then I started to really pray at the Mass. I put aside my judgments and started to really listen to the words and approach with the attitude of knowing that this is the True Sacrifice as much as the Latin Mass is. I now love the Ordinary Form of the Mass as much as I ever loved the EF. No, the OF doesn't have all the smells and bells, it may not be as pleasing to the physical senses for some. But that does not take away the fact that it is our door to heaven just as much as the Latin Mass is.

Be very careful of condemning the Ordinary Form of the Mass. It is honored by the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We can do no less.

Valdemar said...

Excellent post.

As a convert, I THOUGHT we were headed for what we eventually found in the liturgy and teaching of our FSSP parish. Granted, that parish is 1 1/2 hours from home, but it is worth the drive.

Chaos and mayhem and slovenly disrespect for the liturgy and pathetic and laughable homilies and confused teaching and fear of living and teaching Catholic truth does not exist at the FSSP parish.

Reverent WORSHIP, respect from the faithful, powerful and challenging homilies, clear teaching and bold outreach and witness to Christ and the Gospel DO.

Praise God.

I sincerely hope you folks out there starving can be fed. Start bugging your Bishop to reach out to the FSSP?

Valdemar said...

"Catholic in Brooklyn", your warning is well-said except that the CULTURE of the Ordinary Form has developed to almost inherently include irreverence and doctrinal heresy.

In other words, Christ is indeed present but in most parishes he gets a black eye by the disdainful mob.

Sorry.

You are right, it's not the "system", it's the "people".

The PEOPLE ave been led and taught staggeringly poorly, encouraged to develop terrible habits and have not been disciplined. Good fATHERS discipline their children. Bad and abusive FATHERS don't. We have too many bad Fathers leading the confused sheep.

There certainly are powerful Ordinary form parishes, in some cases {like Lincoln, NE} whole dioceses, but those are, let's face it, not the norm.

Some of us converts have given up friends, respect of families and business associates and income to convert to the Catholic faith based on Catholic Truth. I can say myself I didn't convert {bringing with me my wife and all my adult children as well} in order to be content with a half-baked, doctrinally dubious, pathetically led pseudo-Protestant, Lutheranized "Catholic Church", so pardon me when I run into it everywhere and am frankly enraged by it.

I see far more liberal Lutheranism in the Catholic Church on the whole today than Catholicism. As an ex-Lutheran, I know of what I speak. And it is being foisted on us by folks at the highest levels. And now we have the Pope himself heading to Lund, Sweden to celebrate the Demonic Divorce of the Church with the quintessential heretical lesbian led dregs of the Lutheran world.

That sticks in the craw of MANY of us out here. That this sort of thing can even happen is bad enough, that it will go down smoothly among the lion's share of "Catholics" is utterly horrific.

Blessed Virgin, pray for us.

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Valdemar, you write about "half-baked, doctrinally dubious, pathetically led pseudo-Protestant, Luteranized" churches. That is quite a judgment. Yes, of course it is true that many people do not have the reverence they should have for the Mass and they don't seem to realize that Jesus Christ is residing in the Tabernacle right in front of them. But that does not take away from the fact that we are talking about THE MASS, which is the unbloody Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and also that no matter how the people act, Jesus Christ IS still present in the tabernacle, surrounded by the angels and saints and His Blessed Morther. If they don't walk away, do you think we have a right to walk away?

My point is that no matter how the people act or what they believe or don't believe, the Catholic Church is still the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. If you are one who does understand the significance of the Mass, then you have an obligation to be at the parish to which you are assigned and show people how it should be done. Go the Mass, pray with reverence, worship Christ in the Tabernacle. If all you can do is walk away to try to find another place that is more to your liking, then you are actually abandoning our Lord just as the apostles did at the crucifixion.

Dymphna said...

I go to the Novus Ordo on Sunday because that's all I've got. I tolerate it but go to the Tridentine twice a week and that gives me strength.

Valdemar said...

Catholic in Brooklyn, yes it is. Heresy is RAMPANT among Catholics and even Priests. It is not disciplined by the leadership and it has polluted the Church.

Now, as for the other things you say, I agree. I never said anything about the Mass not being VALID. I said it is being disparaged everywhere in the Catholic world.

I also never said anything about us LEAVING. To the contrary, we should be staying and all those who know the truth should be studying and praying and fighting to defend Holy Mother Church. Given options, I would encourage everyone who can, especially if they have children* to take advantage of an FSSP or ICKSP parish if one is available. But if not, do what you can.

*Children; Let me give you ONE "little" example.

You seem to think I am making sweeping judgments without support for them. Well, let's take a look at this; What do you say when you see a drunk man in a ditch? You say; "There's a drunk man in a ditch". What if you saw 1,000 drunk men in a ditch? You would say, "There are 1,000 drunk men in a ditch". Describing what you see is in no way "judgment" unrighteously, in fact, is is mere statement of observable fact. Judging not on appearances but on fact.

Go to parish after parish EVERYWHERE in the USA and Europe and, in short, in basically all of the developed world Catholic parishes. Count the children of those who are in child bearing years, and count the children of those who are now past those years. What do you see? You see average family size virtually no different than that among Protestants and non-believers. WHY? Because Catholics have adopted the ways of the world and have rejected the teaching of the Church, not just in "inner" spiritual ways unobservable to outsiders, but in ways that are manifestly obvious. They live in mortal sin and perpetuate it in the teaching and modelling they do among friends, family and the world. There is no way around it. If Catholics were following the teaching of the Church they would exhibit, on average, larger families. Except among Traditionalists and a few other pockets, that is simply not true anymore and you and everyone else knows it.

That is just ONE example among the "faithful". And I am not even mentioning the total slobbishness that occurs among the faithful during Mass and specifically Communion. Would that such things were the worst of what we practice as a culture!

Others exist among the Priests and leadership; Communing of the divorced and remarried, communing of Freemasons, allowing liturgical novelties without Apostolic See approval according to the Roman Missal itself. We must face the log, no, the FOREST in our own eyes; The leadership of the Church has FLED the TEACHING of the Church in order to be "nice" and to ignore sin and the consequences thereof. NOT everyone, but enough that the culture of the Church simply does not reflect the TEACHING of the Church.

I agree it is hard to swallow, but it is true.

WE have lots of work to do.

May God bless and preserve the Catholic Church.

Catholic in Brooklyn said...

Valdemar - I think you're contradicting yourself a bit. You write that you never said anything about "us LEAVING." Yet, right after that you write that you encourage everyone to take their children to a traditionalist church. When I wrote about leaving, I meant leaving your neighborhood parish to travel to another church that is more to your liking, as you mentioned in your first post, that you drive 1-1/2 hours just to go to a parish that you like better, when you have a Catholic Church must closer in which Christ resides in the Tabernacle and the Mass - even though you may not like it - is valid. Christ is not abandoning that neighborhood church - why are you?

As I say, it is like the apostles abandoning Christ at the crucifixion. Things get rough - you're out of there. I'm sure you don't see it that way, I'm sure you believe you're doing the right thing - but think it through. Christ is right there in that Church you have rejected.

You get no argument from me that we have problems in our 21st Century Church. It drives me crazy that people casually and loudly visit with each other before and after the Mass, completely oblivious to the fact that they are literally in God's House. I hate it when the priest starts doing his own thing on the Mass, not following the rubrics. I hate the clapping for the musicians, etc. I hate the fact that people so casually go up to receive Communion, totally unaware that they are approaching their Creator and Savior.

But it is not my job to condemn them. It is my job to pray for them and to be an example. I don't know what is in their hearts. The truth is, those of who have greater knowledge and awareness are actually much more culpable and will be judged much more harshly than they will be. These are not "bad" people. After all, they are at Mass, and that should say something about them.

Edison Frisbee said...

I find it not very prudent to put a whole lot of effort into redeeming a liturgy that had one of its Eucharistic prayers penned out on a cocktail napkin, but that's just me. Soviet battle doctrine was to NOT reinforce failure.....I think they may have been on to something.

Valdemar said...

Catholic in Brooklyn;

I am not contradicting myself in any way. I am speaking about not leaving the Church which is what I thought you were referencing. Bishop Athanasius Schneider, in recognition of the crisis in the Church today, has advised Catholics to seek out parishes where the truth of the teachings of the Church are modeled and lived, even if one must travel. To subject one's family, especially young children, to the heresies common in many parishes today poses a grave risk. That is, for those who care about such things. And there are many who not only do not care, but are actively promoting the selfsame heresies.

To leave a parish that insults the Lord Jesus in defamed worship is not jumping ship on the Barque of St Peter, it is doing what one can do in order to bring holiness TO a sick Church. There is little else we can do. And part of this sound decision-making is notifying the diocese that one is no longer giving to that parish but will be giving to another. In the event that the local Bishop is nothing but a money-changer, that may have some positive effect as well.

It sounds very much in your critique of what I am saying that you see the Extraordinary Form as less valid than the Ordinary Form. Possibly I have misunderstood you in that regard.

What I saw almost immediately upon entering the Church was many, MANY "orthodox" Catholics who have sat back and allowed heretics to little by little take over their parishes. The self-proclaimed "orthodox" folks justify their lack of action on exactly the argument you put forth: "Well, the Mass is still valid" even if they destroy the railings and put a beachball on the altar and scatter theologically un-Catholic music into it.

And of course, in the strictest sense, that is "true".

But gutlessness and standing by and doing nothing when the Lord's Temple is trashed is just that; cowardice in the face of the devil himself. Cowardice that leads to simple evil being lived and taught in the face of a valid Mass. To the extent now that the Ordinary form culture has been deeply polluted. there are notable exceptions to this rule. In fact, I think it is safe to say that there are exceptions in every or almost every diocese if I can speak generally, and certainly in some regions it does not nearly so apply. But in the USA and Europe and Latin America, the Church is in serious crisis. "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to sit back and do nothing". Nowhere is that demonstrated more clearly than in the Roman Catholic Church.

If you cannot see that this has in fact happened all over the developed world then I have nothing more to say.

Valdemar said...

As a separate note, Catholic in Brooklyn, I strongly disagree with what you say here:

"But it is not my job to condemn them."

This is Modernism pure and simple.

The entire history of the Catholic Church from the utterances of Jesus till Pope John XXIII's opening address to Vatican 2 when the ecclesiastical and theological model was dumped has been to affirm the Truth and condemn evil. Right from the start of V2, and since then in entirety, we have seen a grand attempt of folly by Church leadership to say only the good, and avoid saying anything negative. Except of course the Grand Master of Insults, Pope Francis himself who rants and raves about how terribly judgmental Catholics who actually try to live Catholic lives are, all the while praising those of other religions. Indeed, some fellow has compiled his anti-Catholic torrents into a little "book"!

So you need to re-evaluate your statement. You have fallen into error. This error is easier for us to live out because to condemn the evil isn't "nice". And we all know that being a Modern Catholic is all about being "nice"

Ever wonder WHY Christians were persecuted in the early centuries? It wasn't race. In fact, it wasn't even a separate religion. It wasn't even in affirming Jesus.

It was for condemning the powers of the world and the denial of Roman absolutist and divine kingship. AND for the condemnation of evil lifestyle practices common among the people of the time. Christians were hated precisely because they both affirmed and condemned. Just like Jesus. And...totally unlike most Catholics today.

The Catholic Church has lost much of Her power as a theological change agent precisely because Her leaders pretend they can be nice without ever condemning the sins of the world. Just as Pope John XXIII said was the new model.

We need to regain that spiritual leadership. It will come with a price. Loss of friends, family, maybe jobs and maybe life itself. But it must happen or we have sold out Christ Himself for the Mammon of Judas.

Now, as for HOW to address those who disparage the Mass by entering in a slovenly fashion, there are many ways. I think you would agree that yelling at them or something of that nature is not the way. Tho it might come to that! LOL. But dressing appropriately and modeling respect ourselves is first and foremost the way {the affirmative} and addressing the issue with the Priest is next {in condemnation of the fault}. He is the shepherd. He has the authority to make changes. And if he doesn't? Well, there is your cue about what that priest thinks about the Mass. So one can ratchet it up from there. And if nothing else works, and let's face it, it won't in many {most all?} Ordinary Form parishes, start looking for a different parish, and let that Priest and bishop know why.

We are called to judge righteously. Jesus said so. There is no demand to peek into the hearts of those who dress like slobs at Mass. Remember that Church leaders have been lousy "Fathers" and haven't taught the children at all. So they need to be taught.

Of course, when given the chance, if they continue to resist the most basic expectations of decency, well, then is the time to say so. Same for the Priest.

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